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Old March 8th, 2013   #1
schicksal
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Default ST 1300 Pan weave issue

Dear friends

I am old bike rider, since more than 30 years, I started with a Honda Gold wing 1978 brand new, and since then I have owned many models, all of them over 1.000 cc. I currently own a 2012 FJR 1300 and a 2012 HD Super glide 1.600 cc
Besides I used to fly Jet fighters for many years, I have more than 2.000 hours in those beouties, F5, A 37, Hawker Mk 72, and many others.
I received my jet training in Web AFB, Tx for two years, and according to my experience I perfectly handle aerodinamics knowledge.

Well after introducing myself I will try to explain my point of view about the Pan Weave problem of the ST 1300, which is a bike that I love, but I have been afraid to buy only because of this little big dangerous issue.

I think that the problem is located in the rear side bags, due to it's specific and nice aerodinamic shape. The upper surface has a shape that under certain circumstances should produce considerable upward force lift.

My friends, you should know that a Cessna 172, that weights over 2.000 pounds can take off at 55 MPH, only because of the lift that it is created by it's aerodinamic shape on it's wings.

I am pretty sure that Honda Engineers have proven this magnificent bike in wind tunnels, but you know that when riding our bikes, it is likely to encounter relative winds coming from fifferent angles and sometimes gusts winds with different intensities.

This should produce uneven lift forces applied to the side bags, causing according to my point of view the oscilations in the rear of the bike sometimes up to 11 per second ( proven ).

So, currently, the bike is dangerous at high speeds and could kill a rider due to loss of control ( One British police died for this reason ).

My solution is to modify the shape of the side bags in such a way that this aerodinamis effect be avoided.

Kind Regards to evryone and I hope someone could transmit this message to Honda.

I hope I can contribute with this wonderfull bike and I hope the problem is found and fix so I can buy one and ride it safely without been woried if I will died in my next ST 1300 ride.

Big hug to everyone

Patricio Gonzalez
Santiago, Chile
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Old March 8th, 2013   #2
Superdirk
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

Welcome to the Forum !

You bring some interesting and new points to this topic that has been discussed a lot. Many tests have been done by various rides, with and without lugguage, with and without top-case and top-case with spoiler (added downforce). But the result was always the same. The weave is persistent, especially in the older models ( I ride the 2003 model, and above 160km/h the weave is there), There is some improvement if I move my weight forward.

Personally I think the weave is related to the steep angle of the front fork and the (lack of) stiffness of the front fork and the frame. The steep steering angle makes this heavy bike very agile, but affects the stability. It's like the wheels of a supermarket trolley, where the "steering angle" is negative, the wheels start to oscillate.

I installed the superbrace that stiffens the front fork, and the weave is reduced, but still present. The effect of the superbrace is the highest when riding with 2 people.

For me the high-speed stability is a minor nuisance, 99% of the time I absolutely love the power and agility. I tested the FJR but I much prefered the effortless torque of the ST.

But for a jet pilot like yourself, your priorities may be different

Ride on whichever bike you like ! To each his own !
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Old March 8th, 2013   #3
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

As I understand it you have to be going in excess of 100 mph to get the weave. If that is true as long as you dont exceed that you should be alright.
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Old March 8th, 2013   #4
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

Ahh, the German Autobahn is just 1hr away.. Always tempting..

I'm used to driving up to 240km/h by car, so I am not afraid of the speed itself. With the ST I can go up to 200-210 on the speedo for a few seconds or minutes, but I never reached top speed because of the weave. Just too scary.

It's a pity, because the engine feels like you could add another gear and keep going beyond 250.
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Old March 8th, 2013   #5
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

14.7 pounds per square foot... but that's a well designed airfoil on the Cessna. I doubt the lift generated by the bags comes anywhere close.

And no, I am not afraid of the bike; I do however have respect for any vehicle that can take me to places that can kill me. My car, another's car, airplanes, bicycles, skateboards...
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Old March 8th, 2013   #6
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

Wait - why do I feel like I just replied to that email from "My Friend: in Nigeria who found a check with my name, and that for a fee he'll send it to me?
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Old March 8th, 2013   #7
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

I posted this same thing in the other thread on this issue too:

Ok, first the dirty air problem at lower speeds with on-coming cars/trucks is NOT the high speed weave issue.

That's just normal dirty air turbulence.

The high speed weave ONLY happens at higher speed (i.e., 120 mph and above depending upon many factors).

Please do not confuse the two.

Patricio, I agree that the issue stems from aerodynamics but, I do not believe that it is the saddlebags that cause it. I think it is the front fairing and that it lightens the front end at higher speeds.

Just my opinion, though. I haven't been able (or tried for that matter) to prove it. I just don't ride fast enough for it to be an issue. My particular high speed weave starts at around 135 mph on this particular ST1300. My first ST1300 had the issue too and it started around 125 mph.

I think that the RaceTech suspension that I added to my second ST1300 helped some and is the reason for the difference between the two bikes. But again, I cannot prove that.

Just conjecture on my part but, it makes sense.
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Old March 8th, 2013   #8
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM View Post
14.7 pounds per square foot... but that's a well designed airfoil on the Cessna. I doubt the lift generated by the bags comes anywhere close.

And no, I am not afraid of the bike; I do however have respect for any vehicle that can take me to places that can kill me. My car, another's car, airplanes, bicycles, skateboards...
Don't forget Snakes.
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Old March 8th, 2013   #9
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by zldrider View Post
think it is the front fairing and that it lightens the front end at higher speeds.
So.. Highway pegs as spoilers to generate downforce ?
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Old March 8th, 2013   #10
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Default Re: ST 1300 Pan weave issue

I actually considered adding some airfoils to the sides of the fairing in an attempt to use them to generate down force, much as rear spoilers are used on some racecars.

;-)

Never got around to trying it, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdirk View Post
So.. Highway pegs as spoilers to generate downforce ?
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